Talk:ココロ (Kokoro)
This Talk page was moved to the Forums for archive purposes. About This Page This Wiki is for the general information of Vocaloids and derivatives, not for the specific song. This article disorders this Wiki needlessly with subjective comments. --Damesukekun 22:38, December 24, 2009 (UTC) :"This Wiki is for the general information of Vocaloids and derivatives, not for the specific song." And that's not a subjective comment in itself? :I'm on old flame here at the Wiki, I stopped contributing after the place pretty much became an edit war between moderators and people plastering their fanmades all over the Wiki. But I digress. :The original aim of the Wiki (which you will happily find in the Vocaloid Wiki talk:Community Portal) was to create a comprehensive list of pretty much everything Vocaloid, songs and all. Songs are at the heart of Vocaloids, without the songs the Vocaloids sing there would be no Vocaloids. To say that this article disorders the Wiki is a rather empty argument. It remains grounded within the context of the song, covers important details such as covers, artistic, lyrical and compositional, along with information about the creator of the song as well as providing links to all known versions. :There is an old saying. Do not attempt to fix that which is not broken. I feel this applies here. :Final note: Please don't threaten and bully other contributers. Kaiseine 11:21, December 30, 2009 (UTC) ::Well, I do not think Damesukekun is threatening and bullying. He is ready to discuss the matter and if someone does not agree with him, the one should give one's opinion on this discussion board like Kaiseine did. When it comes to removal, revisions without explanation by anonymous contributors may cause an edit war. However maybe Damesukekun should elaborate it a little more, citing some concrete examples, so that everyone can discuss if they are subjective or not. Blacksaingrain 17:50, December 30, 2009 (UTC) I'd like to point out that if we create each page for each "notable" song, what is the criteria of this notability? YouTube? or Nicovideo? This will cause the edit war again. Further, why don't we have the independent article "Miku Miku ni Shite Ageru?" This song is doubtlessly the most famous and notable Vocaloid song on both YouTube and Nicovideo. This is the point I say that the pages "Kokoro" and other songs are just the fancies. In addition, edit war has calmed down since I stepped in this Wiki and modified many wrong lines. I don't mean to push the Japanese viewpoint but I have to say that the editors who didn't have the basic understanding of Japanese (both language and culture) made the editting just by speculation, which caused the confusion and argument. Song articles invite these kind of speculation easily again. Further, many translations on YouTube are not fully correct, so the authenticity of these article itself is doubtful.--Damesukekun 15:50, January 2, 2010 (UTC) :No-one said the song had to be notable to be considered for a wiki page. I'd prefer every single vocaloid song created to be archived on this wiki rather than have none at all. The reason why pages such as this exist is because people have took the time to create them. It comes down to personal taste, and seeing as Kokoro was one of the first vocaloid songs I was exposed to, it stuck in my mind and after becoming a contributor of this wiki I decided to make a page about it. There is nothing stopping anyone from making these pages. I probably would have made a few more myself if I hadn't left the wiki. :I find the comment about the editors not knowing much about the Japanese language and culture quite elitist, besides the point, and completely incorrect since the majority of articles made during my time at the wiki were proof-read by a Japanese contributor named ymiyass900 who has since stopped contributing to the wiki as well. A search of the wiki will confirm this. :I'd again like to request that you provide an argument that is not subjective and has some basis in fact rather than opinion as to why this article needs to be deleted, as opposed to should be deleted (in your opinion). Kaiseine 18:25, January 3, 2010 (UTC) ::Narrow minded. It is you that reject the talk calling me subjective. You admitted that this page was just your favor, this is the fact. And I gave the reason. Your support is weak. That's all. Well, I guess you were the anonymous contributor who deleted the tag sneakily. I don't know why you avoided the talking. If you had said honestly, "I love this song. I want to spread the splendor of Vocaloids with this page," then I would have had the socond thought. You should learn how to get along with others. --Damesukekun 23:13, January 3, 2010 (UTC) :::Please do not resort to insults because you feel your opinion isn't being taken into consideration, and please do not make false accusations that I am vandalising this Wiki. A check of IP's will reveal I was not the person who removed the delete tag. If you have a problem with me, take it up with the admin, user:Antonio Lopez. Lets keep the discussion civil and not resort to personal prejudices and insults. Kaiseine 23:18, January 4, 2010 (UTC) I disagree with the deletion. And to the "Miku Miku ni Shite Ageru" comment; if someone wants to create an article for it they can, but the basics of it is covered on Miku's page. Though there are tons of parodies, two dance routines, and it was used for Project Diva. I can see that would make a nice page. But I'm not sure what the argument is here. Is it because there are too many songs to create pages for? Or is it because you think a song should not be titled "notable" by one person? Bunai82 03:03, January 4, 2010 (UTC) :I was not fully aware of the purpose of this Wiki. Yes, I'm all for to create the database of Vocaloid songs. What I concern is that song articles easily invite the edit war, for each has his/her own impression on a song. I'm editing Japanese Vocaloid/UTAU Wiki, too and I often have to close articles because of fruitless disputes. The existing song pages on this Wiki reflect the editor's viewpoint strongly and are lack of balance. Wiki is not the place to advertise emotion. Maybe just the outline and several links suffice. Another concern is, as I said, that not a few subtitled videos on YouTube have serious mistakes, and we have no valid way to block the misunderstanding. On this regard, I'm trying to create a society in which translators have the chance to exchange their ideas and proof their translations one another. --Damesukekun 06:01, January 4, 2010 (UTC) ::You know if you don't think they are correct, you can always correct them yourself or add in an extra sentence explaining an alternate view of these stories. Also, what if some of the links to the YouTube have mistakes? Translation in itself is open to individual interpretation. Looking back on your edits I notice you made a comment about 心 not meaning soul in the context of the song. I, along with my Japanese language teacher, would disagree (from my understanding it encompases the mind, spirit and emotions) but I wouldn't go out and say that your interpretation is wrong. What are you refering to exactly (within this article)? Perhaps we can correct any misunderstandings you feel this page presents. Kaiseine 23:18, January 4, 2010 (UTC) ::The purpose of the wiki is to contain a database on anything related to the subject of Vocaloid, not just limited to Vocaloids. Infact even articles of PowerFX and Crypton (if information exists) can be created instead of linking to Wikipedia in my opnion. Antonio Lopez (talk) 01:25, January 5, 2010 (UTC) :::I understand. --Damesukekun 23:46, January 5, 2010 (UTC) ::Okay, I opened up discussion about the pages possible problems and if/how they could be resolved but you went ahead and deleted content anyway. That's a big no-no in wiki etiquette. I wont humour you with the edit war that you seem to be inciting, though I suggest the page is locked until these issues can be sorted. Making corrections, or adding alternative viewpoints is fine but simply deleting content because you don't agree with it is not appropriate. Don't confuse facts and values. :: So, you feel that personifying the vocaloids as the characters they are portraying is wrong? What do you base this on? There are countless Japanese and Western vocaloid fans that depict the vocaloids as the actual characters in the songs. There is nothing wrong with that. For further justification, in this song Rin sings in both the third and first person. トラバルタ-P uses it as a way to create drama and to shock the audience once they realise the robot the singer is singing about is actually themselves. This is synonymous with the fact that vocaloids are actually programs. This can easily be extended to the idea of robots/androids which is what people will naturally think upon hearing a roboticised voice. People make connections with what they see and hear, and I'm afraid you don't have any jurisdiction over that. This results in PV's where the characters resemble the vocaloids themselves and others follow it as it's a natural progression. ::Episode Zero, no matter how you look at it, is a cover of the original. I was not aware of a version by Gakupo and Kaito, though this would still be considered a cover. Due to it's nature I put it under the heading of other works though your wording of cover is incorrect. Rin & Lens would be called a 'version' as it is not possible for an artist to have a cover of a cover of their own original song. In this case it is deemed a 'version' of the cover, not a cover itself. That's all I have to say. I look forward to your response. Kaiseine 10:31, January 5, 2010 (UTC) What you cast is the very point that invited controversy on Japanese Vocaloid Wiki (Hatsune Miku Wiki accurately), too. You seem to have a strong affection for this song, which may cut both ways. I am one of the co-administrators of Miku Wiki, and Kokoro page was locked repeatedly because of the passionate but fruitless interpretations and speculations that the author never commented or approved officially, e.g., the rules of Rin and Len or derivative videos. I say again, this article is obese with the emotional comments. Wiki is for providing information, not for expressing feeling. An editor is not influenced by his/her own emotion. --Damesukekun 23:32, January 5, 2010 (UTC) :I think this article should not be deleted, but the basic information and description　of the songs should be barebones just presenting the fact objectively without impressions and imaginations, to be open to interpretation. In the original Kokoro, there's no clue who the scientist is. The scientist could be Len, but he/she could be anyone else for the song can be interpreted differently in individuals. The PVs showing Len as the scientist seem to be beloved and acceptable, but not to everyone. I love them though, it is just one of the various countless interpretations. Also it is true that personifying the vocaloids has caused many controversies and sad to say it still does. That means there's no general agreement on it yet, I suppose.Blacksaingrain 03:35, January 6, 2010 (UTC) :Please read my edit of Innocence. Summarizing is an art. I translated this song because the previous translators had made the misunderstanding that this song was a love song without digging the background. As my description says, I paraphrased many lines and added many words. Still my trans seems to be approved in YT community judging from the comments and PMs I received, especially the ones from those who had the command of Japanese. But I avoided expressing my viewpoint on this Wiki for my doing so easily make the viewers biased. Rather, I just set several important facts and links, leaving the room for free interpretation. --Damesukekun 07:06, January 6, 2010 (UTC) :: I'm beginning to understand now, particularly on the Len/Scientist issue. I've rechecked the videos and source material and Len was never directly portrayed as the scientest, only Rin was shown specifically as the robot in the original and kiseki. The problem here is that users on YouTube are more likely to come across a PV for the song as opposed to the original unlike Nico Nico where the original song/video comes out and a few weeks later the PV's follow. I see your logic and I'm happy to leave it at that, but a lot of uninformed people won't see it that way. Would a fair compromise be 'Len tells the story of the scientist...'? The connection between a vocaloid and their songs is pretty strong (as you may have seen, some of Miku's higher pitched songs create a debate over whether it is Miku or Rin and can often get quite heated). ::In regards to descriptions however, some creative wording is still needed to keep the articles interesting. This is mostly reflected in adjectives such as 'The music was slow and moody'. Some people may not quite describe it like that, but it gives the sentence flavour as opposed to something that is completely neutral like 'The music had a tempo of 90 and used violins'. An entire article like that would be very boring to read. Remember, some people may use this wiki to discover new songs/vocaloids and without a somewhat positive description the wiki wouldn't fill that role. Kaiseine 17:48, January 6, 2010 (UTC) ::: In my view, wiki is especially for uninformed people, including someone who comes across a PV or has never listened to the song, and that is the reason why we should not write impressions and imaginations on the articles. Emphasizing a specific interpretation might easily make them believe only it has the ring of truth, because it's on wiki. They should be given a chance to know the song with nonbiased information, not being influenced by only one idea. Certaintly the connection between vocaloids and their songs is pretty strong, but why don't we leave it to each person’s imagination? I think we don't have to, or maybe we should not, judge which interpretation is wrong or right on wiki. What we should do is making the article more reliable and accurate with the information based on confirmed sources. 'Len tells the story of the scientist...' would be fine. (I don't know about the debate over Miku's songs. I guess it would be Miku if she herself is singing, but it depends on what the songs are about.) :::If contrarians are few or none, there's no problem of using creative wordings. Maybe it's not a bad thing to make the articles more interesting though, once we use them, we always have to prepare for contrary opinions. Besides, I think this article is attractive and interesting enough even without creative wordings. It's a very good idea to introduce songs and videos with pictures. The pictures visually make a big appeal of each video and also we can easily recognize which is the original at first sight. Blacksaingrain 09:34, January 7, 2010 (UTC) "ココロ・アナザー -ラムダオーガン- Episode ZERO" 杉の人(Suiginohito) and his group produced three covers of Kokoro with PV. And he says episodes of these videos have nothing to do with the original song by トラボルタP(Toraboruta-P). http://unison.xrea.bz/kkranother/ The first video is "ココロ・アナザー -ラムダオーガン-(Kokoro・Another -Ramudaoogan-)" sung by Kaito and Gakupo. This is a parody PV with Suginohito's own interpretation.http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm6324778 The second video is "ココロ・アナザー -ラムダオーガン- Episode ZERO"(Kokoro・Another -Ramudaoogan- Episode ZERO)" sung by Rin and Len. Suiginohito says this is a episode of few hundreds years before "ココロ・アナザー -ラムダオーガン-(Kokoro・Another -Ramudaoogan-)", not the original.Lyrics are arranged, based on the fanfic by おしまいのP（Osimaino-P)http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm6460759 The third video "ココロ ～Yet Another～(Kokoro ～Yet Another～)" by KAITO and Rin. Suiginohito refers this is a episode in a pallarel world of "ココロ・アナザー -ラムダオーガン-Kokoro・Another -Ramudaorgan-", not the original.Lyrics are arranged, based on the fanfic by おしまいのP（Osimaino-P)http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm8125307 I think the article still needs to be fixed.Blacksaingrain 14:10, January 5, 2010 (UTC) :Just for the record, alphabetism of "Ramudaoogan" is "Lambda Organ".http://unison.xrea.bz/kkranother/staff.htmlBlacksaingrain 05:02, January 6, 2010 (UTC) : :Due to the nature of the Page, I'll fix the Lyrics and order of the page. it pains me to see it this way. Plus, the Romaji of the lyrics are either misheard, or has a missing letter. <.< :K4KING 15:13, July 15, 2011 (UTC) Gallery Kyah! Sorry K4KING-san. I guess I'm not thinking straight right now. My cheeks are still wet, have been crying after watching "*Hello Planet." for the first time. And it's getting worse after I watch the animated video. Me and my soft soul (´；ω；`) so easily cry (;´Д`;) This editing... makes me know quite a lot of good (and sad) original songs... Esperancia 06:31, September 6, 2011 (UTC) It had sense I saw that a user tried to move the Kokoro/Kiseki PVs to their respective section in Arragements. I don't know why K4KING undo that change, it had sense to me. Despite the author is the same, it have no logic the Kokoro/Kiseki PVs in the section dedicated exclusive to Kokoro, I found it a bit messy IMO. I'm going to move the PVs to the other section and I'm going to try to summarize the description about Kokoro/Kiseki Adept-eX 19:24, November 16, 2011 (UTC) :Messy transfer. Simple reason to revert it back. Feel free to move it again anywhere else. I really don't like to edit this page, or rather I keep it as it is. It's one of the most overloaded-yet attractive pages that seriously makes me want to remove the rest of the stuff. K4KING 19:37, November 16, 2011 (UTC) ::Maybe in the future I can try to do a compressed song derivative template for this kind of songs, with numerous derivatives Adept-eX 21:15, November 16, 2011 (UTC) ::If you can do that, that would be very lovely. K4KING 09:42, November 17, 2011 (UTC)